In this episode we are sitting down with Jody Grunden and Carl Smith, owner of the Bureau of Digital to talk about a constantly growing and evolving trend in building your audience - community management. Digging deeper into how the Bureau of Digital started their community, what you need to know if you're interested to build, grow, and manage a highly engaged community.
“Make it easy for them to say yes and dont make it anything about making money. Make it about making connections and launching the ship in a direction with the right people where everybody understands that this is about getting better together.” - Carl Smith
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Jamie Nau: Hello and welcome to today's podcast. Today, we have Carl Smith from the Bureau of the Digital to talk about a lot of things. But I think what we're going to start with is there's something that Carl has done that I find amazing. So, you know, being an accountant for over 15 years, a lot of times you work with people within your firm. But what's going on in other firms and other agencies is usually secretive. And so, the first event I went to was the Bureau of Digital, and I was in shock. The amount of people sharing, the amount that was going on, the amount of talking among different companies that were doing the similar thing was a world of amazement for me. So that's why we wanted to bring Carl on. Before we go down that path, Carl, give us a little bit about your background and how the Bureau of Digital started.
Carl Smith: Sure. I was a theater major in college and thought that's what I was going to do, but then realized that I was destined for cruise ship theater, making twenty-four thousand dollars in a good year. So, I ended up in advertising and spent 14 years learning a lot about marketing communications and a lot about client management. Spun out of there to start my own digital business. Ran that for about 14 years. Then right around 2012 I got an email from Greg Story and Greg Hoy. They were getting a lot of shop owners together to talk about how things were going. Ad I didn't know why they wanted me to go. I asked them, and they said, well, we've been reading your blogs and you're either really smart or you're totally full of crap. So, I told them I was like, I'd like to know which it is, so I'll be there because I'm not so sure myself. When I got there, there were about twenty-four shop owners. Gabe Levine was there to represent the legal side. And you know, some of my best friends came out of that first meeting, and what I remember about it was the very first thing we did was we took an oath and that oath said that we wouldn't share anything a reasonable person would find confidential. Especially after having a few drinks. So, it was one of those things where it set the tone. It was kind of campy. And then the very first thing that happened was Greg Hoy shared that they were in a little bit of a temper, a little bit of a difficult spot financially. And when he did that, it kind of made everybody realize, oh, this is what we're doing, we're going to tell the truth. And that kind of set the tone. That was 2012. Fast forward to now around 2016, Greg Story and Greg Hoy had other things they wanted to accomplish. So, I hung out. They took off to do those things. And here we are.
Jamie Nau: I think what I love about the events you do is I'm not saying not a lot of work goes into it, but what I like is that you bring up a topic and you just let it go, you know? So, it's like, you know, I think I've been to five, eight, nine events by now. And like, everyone is different, even though the topics are very similar. And that's what I love. You let the audience take it where they want to take it. So, you know, you could be talking about forecasting and one forecasting meeting can be 20 people and it goes one direction. And then the next time you go to an event, it's completely different, even though it's the same topic. So, again, That's my favorite thing about the events. You keep it simple, so that way it can go where the audience actually wants it to go.
Carl Smith: Yeah. I mean, it's really more of a framework than it is any kind of a structured agenda. And the thing that I think I've loved the most is over the past few years, we've even gotten a little more relaxed where instead of having a topic, we're trying to have a theme. I think why this is so important is because we may be getting the information on what people want to talk about a month out. And this industry moves so fast that in those four weeks when we then sit down, people forget what they said was going to be important to them. So, then we can just what I call, chase the energy. You know, it's like if people get really excited about a certain topic, let's not shut it down because that wasn't what we're supposed to be talking about. Let's let the room go on that. I think that's led to some of the best discoveries that we've had because somebody gets excited, and they share how they're maximizing their energy during the day and they've come up with some little game that they play or whatever. And then you see everybody write it down, you see every head go down and people taking notes. I'm like, that was worth the cost of admission right there for sure.
Jody Grunden: I have a quick question for you along those lines. I was just at an accounting conference; how can you plan an event where actually people truly do share? Because the comment that I got was that we can only have one person from Cincinnati, one person from Fort Wayne, one person in Dallas, because we don't want them to share information. Why is that never really an issue with the people that run the bureau?
Carl Smith: I'm sure they've got their reasoning. I don't know that it's never been an issue that I've been made aware of. I'll tell you that when I was in the advertising world, it felt like everything was a bubble within the shop you were in. And maybe it's similar with what you're saying with the accounting firms. I think when we started in digital work, if you look at the early 2000s, mid 2000s, even really now, there's so much work that it's not like you lost something to somebody and then you went under or that they took something from you. I remember I knew two shops that battled all the time and the two owners ended up being friends. It like really blew my mind when I realized they were vacationing together when all I knew was that one of them undercut the other one and all this kind of stuff. But at the bureau events, even if you're in the same market, like we had, I think the third or fourth owner camp, probably ten people in the room of thirty were from Philadelphia. Now, I don't know how many shops are in Philly, but we had ten of the best ones in there, you know, and the thing was, they were sharing. They were going for it. I think also in this space, a lot of times clients hire personalities. They hire the culture. They carry a lot more than just who can do the work and what the cost is. And maybe that changes over time. But I've never really seen anybody be too reserved. I have had people call and ask who's going to be in the room. In fact, if you go to the website, when somebody signs up, we'll put their logo on the site so that you can see who's going to be there.
Jody Grunden: Oh, that's a great idea.
Jamie Nau: Yeah, it's a really good idea. I think what also helps is having repeat customers. You know, I think having people come to multiple events helps set that tone. If you have been to one before you know what It's going to be like and so when that first topic comes up, there's those who say, twenty five percent of room that's been there before that are going to jump right into the sharing and they're not going to be holding back at all. And maybe it's the numbers even higher than that. But I know every time I've been there's always been those people that have been there before and they kind of set the tone of like, hey, I'm going to share this. I'm going to throw it out there. I'm not afraid.
Carl Smith: Yeah, no, that's a huge part of it. And it's a little different with the online events. But in the in-person events, when we set the table, I would say that probably takes as long as anything else we do, and we don't talk about it much. But we will always make sure that we have alumni who are open to sharing, sitting early in the rotation so that when we go through introductions, we know we've got somebody there who's going to set the tone right. And then also when we see those pre-event surveys, if we see two people who might be struggling with something, we'll sit them next to each other, but we won't tell them why. We just know that over the course of the time somebody is going to make a comment that's going to trigger the other person and then they're going to start talking. You know, once you open up with one person, I think it kind of has a little bit of that domino effect that you've already shared it with somebody you didn't know. So, now it's not as big of a deal to just do it a little bit broader.
Jody Grunden: I didn’t realize you're so calculated. That's very impressive.
Jamie Nau: He's just trying to prove, because I say he doesn't do the actual work, so he's trying to show off.
Carl Smith: I hope Lori doesn't watch this because she's the one that does everything.
All: Laughing [in audible]
Jamie Nau: That's great. I think the next question I have is to Jody's point, you know, like I said when I first showed up to one of these events, it blew me away. Coming from the accounting industry, do you think this is something that works especially well because of the industry, or do you think this is something that can be mirrored from industry to industry?
Carl Smith: I think it depends on the industry. Honestly, I know that in the past I've been approached about maybe doing something similar for lawyers or do something similar for accountants. Being asked if this is the kind of thing that I could imitate and replicate for other groups? I think because in digital agencies, web shops, whatever you want to say, digital firms, there's so much fear because most people running them are not businesspeople. They didn't go to school to run a web shop. You probably went to school to be an accountant. So, it's like totally different. So, you have more confidence in your ability because you're leaning on something that's factual. Meanwhile, they are making shit up all the time and hoping that it works. And they want to know that there are other people like them. And when they find out that everybody is like them in the space, that nobody went to school to learn how to run a web shop, I think that's what makes the bond so strong. Membership's growing 15 percent a month right now. So, I think that's a testament that there's so many people out there who really don't know how to move forward, and they just need a group that's going to tell them, yeah, you do just go.
Jody Grunden: Yeah, for sure. With that group there what's the demographics?
Carl Smith: That’s an interesting question, I don't really have great data on that. I would say my gut feeling is that most of the owners that are coming in now are younger. I would say when we first started, when I first came into the bureau, I was in my 40s. I think most people were like in that age range. Obviously, we're growing older now. Now I think most of the people coming in, we have a good mix gender wise. I would say probably 30s, like I would say mid 30s to mid 40s is kind of the age we see. A lot of Canadian shops continue to come in. I mean, we're predominantly North America with probably 30 percent being Canadian. And then we just had a Russian member sign up recently. We've had a lot of members coming in from India. We've had a few from Japan come in, Australia. So, it's like although that's a really small number, it's interesting to start seeing that happen. Again, it's kind of the same all over the world when it comes to building the web. Everybody just kind of stumbled into it because it was a little bit of the Wild West. I mean, you could just go for it.
Jody Grunden: What are the typical sizes of your firms?
Carl Smith: I would say 30 to 50 is probably the normal range, like that's where we're seeing the most. We have a few solo partners and there are a few, you know, single riders. For the most part, over one hundred, maybe three percent, the majority in that 30 to 50 and kind of scattered around.
Jamie Nau: Now you mentioned that, you know, your growth per month. Is there, I know you just kind of gave some demographic about your overall companies, but what about the ones that are joining? Is there a certain time when companies are like, I need to join because I just hit my 10th employee, or I need to join because I just hit a couple million in revenue? Do you see that pretty scattered as well?
Carl Smith: You know, it's really the events that drive membership. So, I was having a conversation with a colleague, and he goes, your community is really special, but people won't get that. They're not going to join us because it's a community. Give them a reason to find information that they need. I consider it our job to make sure we are giving a reason to join and then putting our effort in making sure that there's a reason to stay. I talked to another community manager at one point, and he was talking about all the things they were doing. And it felt to me like they were building a barbed wire fence around the community. I told them I was like, you know, I'm going to build a giant magnet. You do you and build your wall. But I'm going to build this magnet and just try to make it so important that you're here that you don't want to leave.
Jody Grunden: How do you do that? Do you have Slack channels?
Carl Smith: Yeah, you are in the Slack channels. So basically, those Slack channels drive everything. So, everything in the Slack channels is what we put in the weekly newsletter. So, we look at the conversations, we see what people are wigging out about, what answers they're getting, what answers they aren't getting. Right now, resignation is starting to hit web shops. They can’t find the people that they need to do the work that they've landed. And they've gotten a lot of work for the most part. So, then that's going to become what we put into the newsletter that we can send out. These are things you can look at, like put some answers in there, that sort of thing that's going to drive the events. We've got a hiring and onboarding workshop coming up that was based on a few months ago. That was the thing getting people in. We're going to do another workshop that's going to focus a lot on retention because that's the issue that's happening now. They are coming back from vacation, and that vacation was them talking to other shops. And now they're taking off. So, but then also we're creating clubs within the bureau. So, we have Biz Dev Accountability Group, which is really a club. They meet once a month. They hold each other accountable for things they said they were going to do. We have a bad bitches my night, which is the official women's meet up for women owners in the bureau. We've got a running club that's getting ready to start and a podcasting club. So, it's like any other things that people are interested in, all they must do is tell me about it and they must create a logo. That's the other requirement because they create a logo they are serious.
All: Laughing [in audible]
Jamie Nau: Yeah. I have noticed on your Instagram feed that you've been logging a lot of miles. I'm guessing you're the one starting the running club.
Carl Smith: Actually, it's Brandon Staiger and Adam Kurzawa who reached out to me about something else. And then I told him, I said, hey, I've wanted to do this, but I didn't want to push it. And they were like, push it, push it. So, yeah, I'll accept responsibility.
Jamie Nau: So, I'm curious, I know the last year obviously has been difficult for a lot of companies and agencies, but for you specifically, I know you've had to make the move to virtual events, and I think it's been pretty successful for you. But I'm curious, how does that change your future outlook, including kind of the short-term future?
Carl Smith: Yeah. So, you know, it was one of those things when the pandemic hit, we ended up the following month having a seventy thousand dollar loss. And that was because we had to refund a lot of tickets that people had bought. I remember telling the team, you know, I don't care if we have to put it on my personal credit card. Nobody's going to get laid off or in trouble or whatever because we couldn't get that money back. We had about probably 50 or 60 thousand dollars where people said, just hold on to it, it's fine. We'll figure it out later. So, I think the big shift that happened for us was when we went to membership, like we always had membership, but we only had 65 members may be coming in to 2020. Today, we have almost 700 and so in the course of that 14, 16 months, what really happened was, you know, the community started to rally around us. There were some videos created that talked about what the Bureau meant to people. Membership's started to sell. I finally was at a point where I had never wanted to push it because I didn't want it to be difficult for somebody to hang out with us. I didn't want it to be an obstacle. But then when I realized we might not be there to hang out with, like okay, here's the thing. And then we just quickly spun up. We actually did 72 online events in 2020. So, what we did was we reached out to every speaker that had ever been a part of a bureau event that had received four or five stars. And I said, you've got nowhere to speak, we have nothing to share, let's make this happen. And that really gave more value to membership. Now, this December, we have our first in-person event. And what was amazing was we put it on sale, and it's sold out in two days. Normally, with these things we had to really sell it to get sign ups. Now it's like we have to apologize and create wait lists and try to figure out ways to get other people in. We actually opened a second event in January. That is the exact same as the one in December. Everyone is ready to get back in person. I think the most interesting part of what you're asking. So, when you think about us having 700 members now and it's basically forty nine dollars a month, you can see that math, right? We have annual recurring revenue now that we never had before. And we are right now at what I thought we would have by the end of the year. So, for me, what that means is now I can be a lot more on purpose about the events and the community. And I don't have to worry about anything in terms of how many tickets I sell for this. That is the other thing this pandemic has shown us. It gave us time to slow down and be on purpose. So now we take deposits for an event before we sign the venues contract, which is great if we don't get to 50 percent within a couple of weeks for a five hundred dollar deposit. And we just don't sign the agreement. We make sure we have first right to refusal. We ride that along. And the last thing I'll share here is we're kind of taking a cue from the European Football League's where if an event's really popular, then the following year it's going to be in person. If it struggles, then it may come down to online. Right now, like account management camp, we had to turn 12 people away from the online version. It's mainly because I refuse to let the squares get any smaller on Zoom. So now account management camp will probably be in person in 2022. Like that's to me that lets the community again drive what it is that we're doing.
Jody Grunden: So, with the camp, for those that haven't experienced that, do you bring your sleeping bag and your tent?
Carl Smith: Yeah, well for design leadership camp we are at a dude ranch. But yeah, basically you're going to get together with twenty-five peers, and you are going to share real things. And so, imagine this like there are other groups out there where you can sit down with people. But when you start to describe things in running a digital firm, somebody who runs an appliance store is going to look at you like what? When you say your tools change like every two to three months. Like what? But when you're at a bureau camp and you say that everybody's like, yeah, I understand, because this is such a unique industry and such a unique aspect of the industry, that until you find the people and that's what we hear all the time, it's like at the big events and the small events, people go, I found my people, you know, and that's it. I remember once a good friend told me that we had to be careful because somebody could replicate this really quickly. If they decided they didn't want to pay for membership, they could just tell everybody, hey, come over here, I'm doing it for free. And I was like, you know, I'd love them if they do that because this a lot of work. And I realize that it's taking two people full time and two people part time to do all of this. It's not like you just show up and, you know, shoot some shit back and forth and back, like you're constantly looking at what's going on and the underlying themes. And you're trying to bubble that up so that you can create education spaces as well as community for people to not only learn but walk away feeling supported.
Jamie Nau: I think that's especially true now that you've added the membership. You know, I think the knowledge of membership is grown, like you said. I think that's added so much value to your company, but also like, you know, the value to the topics you're presenting because you have 700 people talking about the same things.
Jody Grunden: What about the difference between the camp and the summit? Which one should I go to?
Carl Smith: That depends on where you are, really, in terms of your life cycle as an owner or a creative director or whatever. So, a summit is going to be more traditional so you can have speakers on stage. You are going to have speakers on stage that you either met in the Slack channels or you've heard about before. They're going to hit on topics that are really important and you're going to get a high-level education from them, but it's not going to be much of a back and forth. So, if you come to a camp, then you're going to be in a moderated conversation. You're going to have opportunities outside of the main room to connect and do things. It could be at a happy hour. It could be on a Jeep tour. It could be at a baseball game. But you're going to have other events outside of that where you get to keep the conversation going. So, it's really a matter of meeting with a few hundred people and hanging out and learning. People ask what's the difference? You know, one's a little cheaper than the other. Should I go to this one and then go up to the next one? It's like, you know, it comes down to what do you want out of it?
Jamie Nau: Yeah, I think having both options is super helpful, too, for people that want to attend, because I think some people might feel more comfortable attending the first one where they don't have to speak. Just listen. I might meet some people and that's something I feel comfortable with. And then some people might want to actually attend the smaller event first because they want to be a little cozier and feel a little less intimidated with a number of people there.
Carl Smith: And honestly, if you are like three to five years in, it's probably a good idea to go to a summit and really hear what's going on and learn at that higher level. If you've been rolling for five to 10 to 15 to 20 years, then you already know a lot of the things you've tried that didn't work. So, you can bring that. And that's what I think the real difference in a camp is, is you're bringing something to everyone as well as getting something from everyone.
Jody Grunden: Adding to that, what do you do with a firm that is three million dollars and everybody at the camp is ten million dollars. How do those firms work with each other?
Carl Smith: Well, it really depends. So, we don't look so much at revenue, but we'll look at either the mix of services, we'll look at the number of full-time employees or if they have a model where it's like dedicated contractors. But it's one of those things where if it looks like somebody isn't going to get the value out of it because they're not going to have the same discussions around H.R. or insurance or financial intelligence, it doesn't look like they're going to have that, then I'll wave them off. You know, this probably isn't a fit for them. We have in the past played around with and I think you're talking about this like we've had a growth camp, which you attended, Jody, where the focus on this is just about growth. That's what we're going to talk about. We've had an owner camp Excel, that is just for those shops that are 50 plus. And that was really interesting to do that. So, as we see the interest come in, we sometimes will fine tune an event to hit exactly what that group is looking for and then find more people that fit that mold. But for the most part, I'm looking at what they're saying. They're challenged with what they're saying they're succeeding on and then also just the basics of the makeup of the shop to see if it looks like they're going to have any value or not come out of it. And it's funny, nobody ever believes me, but I probably turn away two or three companies.
Jamie Nau: So, we're getting close on time here. I have one final question for you. I'm going to take it back to the beginning. Let's say for some reason a chef is listening to this podcast and they're like, I'd love to create the Bureau of Chefs, what would your tip be to them and how should they start?
Carl Smith: So, I would say, first, chefs is a great example. Architects is a great example, somebody who's got a creativity in what it is that they're doing. And what I would say is reach out to the other chefs that you really admire and ask them if they want to get together and just talk about how it's going. The other thing I would say, make it easy for them to say yes and don't make it anything about making money. Make it about making the connections and launching the ship in a direction with the right people where everybody understands this is about getting better together.
Jamie Nau: Those are great tips. I agree. When I started to become a good CFO is when I started attending bureau events like what I was getting out of those events was better than I could have got from any accounting training I went to. I was like, wow, I'm hearing real issues. I'm hearing real conversations and I'm getting so much better at my job because of attending these events. And I think that I can only imagine how valuable it is for people within the industry and within the people that are actually doing the doing the trade, how much they get out of it. So really, really appreciate what you put on here for sure.
Carl Smith: Thank you for that, Jamie. I mean, what you just said was a gift and it's interesting. We'll get three or four emails that come in a week that somebody's saying thank you for something that happened that we had nothing to do with except making those connections. And to me, that's our main job, is to make sure people have people they can talk to. So, thank you for that. And I'll say, you know, I was an attendee that wouldn't go away and found of the thing left and I was still here.
Jamie Nau: That’s great. Jody, final thoughts?
Jody Grunden: Yeah, the friendships that you and I have developed over the years, it's been pretty, strong. You know, it's a shame that we live in different cities, if we didn’t, we probably would hang out with each other, and we’d probably kill each other too.
All: Laughing [in audible]
Carl Smith: Well, I appreciate you all. There aren't many firms in any discipline that focus so much on digital shops and do it so well. So outside of the friendships that I have with both of you and with Adam and with Dave, it's like, what this is about is being humans who are doing something together and you all personify that.
Jamie Nau: Thanks Carl and thank you both for coming on the show. This was a great conversation