Are you an introvert who has trouble networking and marketing your brand or business? In this episode, Jamie Nau, our host and Summit CPA's Director of Virtual CFO sits down with Adam Hale, Partner at Anders CPAs + Advisors, and Monica Parkin, author of "Overcoming Awkward, an Introvert's Guide to Networking, Marketing and Sales. " She is an International Speaker, the host of the "Juggling without Balls" podcast and Director of Community Engagement for Invis Pacific View Mortgages. Overcoming Awkward, is written to free introverts from the crippling social constraints that come with launching and growing their businesses and careers.
"I'm just authentic me. When I meet people, I don't talk about me and what I can do for you and what I do for a living. Ask questions about other people, like: Why are you here? What made you wanna do this business? What can you offer? Who can I connect you to?
It's adding value to other people. And one thing I've figured out is people notice people who notice them. Simple little things like giving someone else a shout out or sharing their post or saying, "Hey, I saw you the other day. That was great." It's bringing that sense of community into everything you do." - Monica Parkin
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Jamie Nau: Hello, everybody. Welcome to today's show. I'm very excited for today's guest, although I'm a little afraid this might be our shortest podcast based on the topic. So hopefully Monica will surprise me in that sense; we are joined today by Monica Parkin, who is the author of the book Overcoming Awkward: The Introvert’s Guide to Marketing, Network, and Sales.
So very excited to talk to her about what it's like to be an introvert in a very extroverted world. Before we jump over to her and let her do a full introduction, I'm joined once again by Adam Hale. So welcome to the show, Adam.
Adam Hale: Hey, everybody looking forward to hearing Jamie overcome his awkward introduction there. Thank you.
Jamie Nau: So, all right, Monica, tell us a little bit about yourself and about your book and kind of how you got into it.
Monica Parkin: Yeah, thanks.
I'll try not to be too awkward and make sure we get some talking time. Not too much dead airspace, but yeah. Monica Parkin, author of Overcoming Awkward: The Introvert’s Guide to Networking, Marketing, and Sales. I'm actually a mortgage broker by trade. When I first went into the industry, I didn't get the memo.
I thought that I could just work from home and email people and call them and didn't have to go anywhere or, you know, build a book of business that would just be handed to me. So, I was pretty surprised when I went into the office on the first day and asked for my first client; they're like, yeah, you're gonna have to go out and find that client yourself.
So that was sort of the beginning of this journey to Overcome Awkward. Last year in the pandemic, I was just sitting around and saw this ad for a 30-day book writing challenge. And I thought, wow, I don't have to commute. I'm saving an hour off of my day. I can do this. And the first question in that challenge was, “What's something you've overcome?”
And so for me, it was this whole introvertedness, and there was a book 30 days later, and here we are.
Adam Hale: Wow. 30 days. That's impressive.
Monica Parkin: Yeah, it was really cool. They send you a little assignment every day. So the first day was like, what's the thing? The next day, where's your table of contents?
Every day, just built on the next. And it was just, you know, half an hour in the morning, half an hour in the evening. And, I was really surprised; by the end of 30 days, there was all the editing and the proofing, fixing, and changing things around that still had to happen. But the bones of it were there.
Jamie Nau: So I imagine in that type of process and probably the way it's set up, there's a lot of learning and self learning along the way. I'm sure what you imagined it would sound like or look like would probably be different than what it actually ended up with. So can you give an example of something you learned through this writing process?
Monica Parkin: Yeah. A. It was completely different than what I expected it to look like. B. One of the things I learned is, for years, I've tried to write a book, and I just can't stick with it. Like I just couldn't. And you know, when I told the kids I was doing this 30-day thing, cause I may or may not have some ADHD, my kid was like, mom, 30 days. That's a perfect amount of time for you to hyper fixate on something; like you can just completely fixate on this and get it done.
And I figured out that's something that works really well for me– it’s like digging deep into something, getting really excited about it. And then, okay, it's done.
I'm gonna put it away. But one of the things they did is a thing called a Palmero method where you just write for 30 minutes at a time; you put on some music and you just write, you don't edit. You just basically vomit out whatever words you can come up with. And the first few days, it was really hard.
After I got going, though, as soon as I put the music on, I just started; the words would just start to flow. I still use that technique now a year later.
Adam Hale: Very cool; that's interesting. So what about in terms of the content of the book, whenever you had to go back and really take inventory of the things that you did to overcome being an introvert in a networking/people business, what are some of the things that you really didn't realize, I guess maybe while you were going through the process yourself?
Whenever you sat down and thought about it, what were some of the big key takeaways there?
Monica Parkin: You are kind of peeling back that onion as you write and as you edit, and you go through one of the things I really didn't realize till afterwards, until I started doing some podcasts and talking to people about this, is the authenticity piece that I didn't realize was such a big part of actually networking and marketing.
Is just being you, your authentic self. And even after I wrote the book, I got pretty vulnerable in parts of it, that was the feedback from people: “We loved how vulnerable you got. I feel this way, too. And I love that you just put your real self out there.”
And for me, just moving forward, marketing myself and looking back, that was a big piece of it because in the beginning, when I was trying to be this, I just have a story in the book about going to this chamber of commerce meeting and being absolutely terrified, walking into the meeting, seeing all the people turn around, going back and sitting in my car and trying to figure out how am I gonna get outta the stupid thing?
Right. And my coworker shows up and I'm like, great. I can't even say I'm sick. She's here now. I gotta go in. But I did the thing that I was supposed to do. You know, I walked around, I shook everyone's hand. I gave my card. I talked about mortgages, but I didn't make any authentic connections. Like it wasn't me.
And I got home and I had all these business cards in my hand, and I'm looking at these cards and I'm like, I dunno, I just throw 'em in the fire. Like, what am I gonna do with these things? And then I'm like, crap. If I'm throwing their cards in the fire, like that means they're all going home and throwing out my cards, too.
Like nothing that I did that day actually grew my business. I was just like a robot shaking hands and talking about myself. And that was a big moment for me when I realized this thing that I've been taught to do, it's not actually growing my business. It's just showing up as this blank person. And I need to actually show up as a real person.
Jamie Nau: That’s so funny.
Adam Hale: What's that look like?
Monica Parkin: What's that look like for me? Like let your inner weirdo shine. I just am me now. You see these pictures behind me, the chicken and the cow? I live on a farm, I’ve got goats and chickens, and sometimes they'll be part of my post or whatever I'm just authentic me.
When I meet people, I don't talk about me and what I can do for you. And this is what I do for a living and take my card. It's asking questions about other people. Like, “why are you here? What made you wanna do this business? What can you offer and who can I connect you to?”
It's adding value to other people. And one thing I've figured out is people notice people who notice them. So. Simple little things like giving someone else a shout out or sharing their post or saying, Hey, I saw you the other day. That was great. Or, you know, it's bringing that sense of community into everything you do and how can I elevate other people?
And it just naturally, there's that feeling of reciprocity that happens and it amplifies your own.
Jamie Nau: Yeah, it's really funny having you tell that story, because I remember being a first year accountant, right outta college. And I'm not an introvert by any means. I'm an extrovert. So I'm like, oh yeah, I've got this networking thing down.
But I had a very similar experience where I walk into a hotel ballroom and I'm talking to people and I'm meeting people and I'm having a great time. And then I go back, same thing, look at all the cards I got. And I'm like, okay, who's this again? And how. Who am I supposed to reach out to, and kind of the next steps.
And so I, I think I had a very similar experience and just like, it took me four or five, six times to go into those events to, to be like, okay, what, what am I trying to get out of this? And how do you do it? So do you still recommend people going to those events and just asking different questions? Or how do you approach that?
Monica Parkin: Yeah. Well both. I think I, I mean, I think there's value in those events. Don't get me wrong. There's definitely value. But I think those are the places, those events are where you now connect with people that you've already built a relationship with. And I think you build the relationships outside of those events, and then you really solidify them when you see those people at those places, what I found, at least for me as an introvert, maybe it's different as an extrovert, but those relationships are built by sitting on little committees, you know, where you got four or five people in a room and you're trying to solve a puzzle together.
You're working on a fundraiser, whatever the thing is, you really get to know other people's personalities. They get to know yours. You're like, there's this sense of camaraderie, volunteering, like just doing all those other things is where you build those relationships one on one, and then you solidify them when you run back into those people at those events.
Right? And, and that's where you connect and, you know, you can rehash, what's working and what's not.
Adam Hale: So getting involved is what I hear. Right.
Monica Parkin: Totally getting involved. Right. Like, for my business is sort of the real estate business, but I use this analogy sometimes when I'm talking to people or doing a presentation. So if I'm living in this beautiful house, right? I got this great business. It's all shiny and clean.
My house is beautiful. My yard's beautiful. Everything looks amazing. If I look across the street, in my neighbor's yard looks like trash or the community's falling down. Like the value of my house will go down. My property value will go down. So it doesn't matter how good my business is. If my community's not thriving, my industry's not thriving.
You know, everyone else around me isn't thriving if I'm not contributing to it. My business is eventually not going to thrive. Like it is a group project. Yeah. We're all part of that same community.
Adam Hale: Yeah. It's so well said. I mean, so how would you, I mean, especially as an introvert though, I mean, even that probably is a little bit scary, right?
Like, volunteering for a small committee or getting into a group and doing those kinds of things. I mean, obviously the smaller number helps and you know, not only with connection, but still you have to put yourself out there and, you know, volunteer to do those kinds of things. So as an introvert, you know, any kind of tips or tricks on how to get around there.
Monica Parkin: First of all, I think it helps to pick something you're passionate about.
Right? Like I, to be honest, my kids all play hockey, but I'm not super excited about hockey. So I try to volunteer as a hockey manager one year and like, I didn't do a great job, cuz I wasn't really excited to get up at six in the morning and I wasn't like it just wasn't my thing. And so it actually probably backfired on me.
It probably didn't turn out to be a good networking thing for me because I wasn't showing up in the way that I wanted to show up. On the other hand, you know, I'm this Total Little Tech Geek. And so the other kids got a robotics team. Well, I was at every tournament and I like pick something that you're passionate about.
Pick something you can do a good job at. And then the other thing I tell people is cuz you see people, sometimes they come in and they're self-employed or they're trying to network. And they join every committee. They volunteer for every single thing. They overextend themselves. They can't do a good job and it actually reflects very poorly on them.
And it has the opposite effect of having a negative impact on their business rather than a positive one. So I would say pick something you're really excited about, cuz you're gonna wanna go and show up, start small, make sure you can manage it. And just, you know, slowly add on to that or maybe mix it up through the year.
Jamie Nau: I also think the, you know, this, this goes down the path of which we talk a lot about is picking a vertical when it comes to sales and marketing comes to your business because, you know, I think if you try to be everyone to everything, to everyone, when it comes to networking and marketing, then how do you know where to go?
How do you know who to talk to? Because, like I said, when I was first outta college, I went to those events and they were lost relationships, but once I kind of got into a vertical and when I was at grand Thornton, that was restaurants. And once I started just talking to restaurant. And just working with restaurant people.
I started seeing the same people over and over again. And like you said, getting more comfortable. And now that I'm at Summit, obviously we have a vertical as well. And I go to a lot of events and I'd very rarely go to events where I don't know at least 5, 6, 7 people, and that makes it way more comfortable.
So I think having that passion and that vertical really makes it easier to choose the events you could go to because if it wasn't for that, I could go to a different event every night, you know, there's, there's something going on every night, somewhere where I could network with.
Monica Parkin: Yeah. Yeah. And at that point you're just throwing cards at a wall and none of them are sticking.
Right? Like you gotta have that, a little bit of a narrow focus and then you can always expand out from there. And yeah, choosing stuff you're excited about for me, like I said, I'm a crazy farm lady. And so actually a lot of my business in the beginning, cuz I'd so here's the story. I would often post pictures of me and my little goats on Instagram or whatever.
So one day I take the little goats to the vet and drop them off and I come back an hour later and they're like, Are you mortgage Monica? Like three people came in here and asked if these are mortgage Monica's goats. Like someone said, I know that's better thought that's mortgage Monica's goat
And like, I built a brand around like, just these crazy little goats, but like that vertical that you're talking about, I started getting business from like agriculture business cycle. Oh, we've got a farm property. We don't know how to finance that. And like, so people would connect me in that way. And so that was kind of my initial.
Little branch was all these farm and agricultural properties, and then it branched into something else and something else. But, you start with that narrow focus and then you move out as you go.
Adam Hale: Yeah. I think what you were mentioning there is pretty important too, is like personal brand.
Right? So as you, as you mentioned there, you know, mortgage Monica, but everybody kind of associated it with the goats and things like that. Jamie and I have seen it with. With Jody, my partner he's he started wearing Hawaiian shirts by happenstance. And, you know, he's kind of really transformed into this like character, if you will, that's become his brand to always have a Hawaiian shirt on wherever he goes and people remember him, people look for him, you know, one, cuz they're pretty silly shirts, obviously.
So, you know, he is easy to find in a crowd. But , but also because you know, he's been able to create that brand for himself and make himself memorable. Which I think you can, I witness it, I see it all the time. I hear it all the time. It's, very noticeable. So I guess we need to like, well, we gotta find our own chicken and go jam.
Monica Parkin: That is what I'm hearing. We gotta, it's a real thing. And there are, yeah. people that I think about and I go, well, that's so and so, and that, like, there's something about them. That's really memorable for me. And, you know, I flew across the country a couple months ago to Toronto. I live in BC, it's like a nine hour flight.
I get there and someone's like, oh, you're the goat lady. Right? Like maybe it's not, you wanna be known for, but the reality is like, they remembered me. Right. So, and that's the end goal. And then in terms of. Talking about authenticity. One thing for me as an introvert or maybe someone who's a little more awkward, if I'm trying to pretend to be someone I'm not like if I've got this fake persona on, I got all these windows open in the background, like I'm trying to remember details about myself.
That aren't true. I'm trying to manage things. I actually. Become less authentic. I become more awkward because I'm like, it's almost like when you're trying to lie and you're trying to remember all the details and you get them all screwed up. If I show up as my inauthentic self, I do the same thing and I actually come across.
Like not such a nice person because I'm trying to, trying to be someone I'm not.
Jamie Nau: No, I think that's a, a great point to that. Also goes back to what you said about, you know, making sure you choose something you're passionate about, because I also think, you know, you're not always your true, authentic self.
If you're talking about something you're not interested in, like, you know, if I'm at a seminar about fixing engines. Like that's something I'm not interested in. Yeah. I'll probably ask questions, but once I ask the question, I'm not listening. Cause I honestly don't care about how to fix an engine. So I'm just gonna move on to okay.
What's the right question to ask, but if you go to something about something you're passionate about, which everybody knows for me is basketball or, you know, I love learning about businesses. So if I'm something like at a place like that, I'm actually asking questions. Cause I genuinely care. I want to know the answer.
Like you seem way more authentic and you're a lot more fun to talk to when you're talking to someone who's that authentic.
Monica Parkin: And you just hit on that listening piece too. And the question piece, right? Like someone told me, use your ear to mouth ratio. Like you got two ears and one mouth. So listen, twice as much as you talk in terms of, you know, building connections, like being that person that makes someone else feel heard, that, like you really deeply listen, you ask good questions.
And even in business, like when you're sitting down across a table from a client, If you don't wanna ask the questions, you can't get the answers. If you don't have the answers you can't solve, the problem they have and half of the equation is getting them in the door. But once they're in the door, it's easier to keep a client and get referrals from them than it is to find a new one.
So the other half of the equation is just being really good at what you do and asking really good questions so that you can actually solve the problem that they showed up for you to solve.
Jamie Nau: Yeah, I'm gonna throw that back to Adam, cuz Adam is the best question asker I've ever witnessed and seen. So Adam, is that your secret right there is that you're authentically caring.
Adam Hale: Yeah. I mean, I just genuinely wanna know more. I mean, it's just one of those rabbit hole things and, and even if it's small engines, Jamie, it doesn't really matter. Like as soon as I hear something I'm usually just like really, and then, you know, it leads to another question. So I just like to absorb information and hear what other people have to say.
I learn a lot from them. You know, just listening to you Monica right now. Like there's a, I took a few notes and quoted you already a couple times. I mean, it's just, you learn a lot from talking to people. And so I'm just naturally a pretty inquisitive person. I do talk a lot though, so I don't know that I have the ratio down.
But it's usually I'm asking questions. So yeah, no, it's, that's great. I mean, you know, so talking through personal brand and how to get into, you know, smaller groups that you're passionate about, I think that lends a lot. And then of course, that rolls right out into marketing.
Right? Because then once you, you know, to Jamie's point, if you have an industry that you're passionate about or a thing that you're passionate about, that's a little bit more focused and you've already kind of cemented yourself in terms of your personal brand. It's easy to then roll out kind of a marketing strategy around that.
Monica Parkin: Yeah. A hundred percent. Like it's just a drill, you know, it's like, you just keep drilling down, drilling down, drilling down and yeah. It's so much easier to roll out a marketing strategy. Once you have all that stuff nailed down, you know, and it's a little bit of everything, right? It's building those relationships one on one taking good care of your clients.
Could carry your community, getting involved and elevating the people around you too. It's that whole going back to that, people who notice people who notice them, like if someone emails me and says, I read your book, it was awesome. Or I saw you the other day. You were great. Like, I am immediately stalking them, Googling, like, who is this person?
Like, who are they? I wanna learn more about them. I automatically like that person. Right? You like people who like you. So, you know, one strategy in the beginning, I didn't even realize it was a strategy. I just did it naturally. It's just giving people a shout out, like, Hey, I saw you the other day. That was fantastic.
Or I read this blog post of yours, or I made a comment. And, recognizing that that was actually building relationships. Because as soon as you notice someone, all of a sudden, they're actually more curious about you and what you do, and now they wanna support you and not doing it for that reason, but it just organically flows out of that.
Jamie Nau: Yeah, I think that's natural for the introvert too. I think that's, you know, I'm thinking my wife is an introvert and it's funny like we've moved several times and she's probably one of the most approachable people in the world. And I think it's because she is an introvert and so like, we'll move somewhere and she'll have 25 friends before I've even met one person.
It's like, that's crazy. I'm the extrovert. I'm the one talking to everybody and yet everybody's approaching her. And I think it's because she has that listening and she's authentic and she really wants to know what you're talking about and cares about, but partly because she is introvert and it's more comfortable for her to listen and talk about the other person where, you know, I think that as extrovert, sometimes get on a path of we're talking about ourselves all the time.
And so I think that's you know, it's, it's really interesting. I think it's a natural for introvert to jump into that lane.
Monica Parkin: yeah. When we look at studies between introverts and extroverts, like they both bring amazing skills to the table and you really wanna have both of them on your team. Like the extroverts have a really important role.
And so do the introverts. But when they look at like the real winning piece for the introverts, it is that listening skill, that deep listening skill, like hearing the stuff that maybe someone else didn't hear and bring that back to the group, like, Hey, did you notice this thing? And then, and then being able to discuss that when you're talking.
Teams and things like that. That's sort of the value piece that they often. And then for me, when I come home from an event, what I figured out is, you know, when I get home, I'm like, you know, I really wanna get to know that person more, or that person really was memorable to me or made an impact to me.
It's usually the person that really asked me some really good questions and really listened. And I felt really heard as opposed to the person. That's just, I'm so great. And this is what I did and that can be an introvert or an extrovert. That's the good questions and listening. And sometimes it's the expert that just comes right up and “Hey, how do I know you and blah, blah, blah” and then asks the questions.
Right? But the other thing I heard someone say before is, you know, have a, have a horseshoe, don't have a circle when you're standing around at a group mm-hmm, like leave an opening for other people to feel like they can step into that group. Cuz when you've got a circle it's hard for someone to kind of step into your conversation.
Adam Hale: Yeah, that's a really good one. See, he's writing something else down. That didn't come from me. I heard it somewhere else happens, but that's okay. That's okay. well, now I'm gonna just cite you. So that's how these things work.
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Adam Hale: You know, what I thought was also interesting about your book in terms of, you know, you talked a lot about, and I can see how, again, how all this stuff kind of stacks on top of itself. But one of the other pieces where, you know, how to win over angry clients.
Like what's, what's that all about? How does that interlock with all that stuff?
Monica Parkin: Yeah. Well, again, think that comes back to that piece where it's easier to keep a client than to get a new one. Right? So networking, getting new clients, building your business is all good, but if you can't keep the business, once it comes in the door, you're just running on this hamster wheel all the time, trying to bring new stuff in.
And for me, that chapter about angry clients is really about A. keeping the business that you already have. And B the, the idea that conflict is, is 99% preventable. Most of the conflicts you're gonna have with clients are preventable and, and they come from you, right. You've either not kept them in the loop.
You haven't been responsive enough. When they're not hearing from you, they don't know what's going on. Their stress levels get high, they get anxiety. They don't know what's going on. They start imagining what might be happening, or it's a way that you're responding. Maybe they. Size do. And all of a sudden you're feeling defensive and then that triggers that whole thing.
But what I figured out is most of the time, if clients are upset, they're actually afraid they're not angry. There's something they are afraid of. I had this client one time. That was just, she's just horrible. Like every time I call her, she would freak out. She'd yell as a mortgage broker, I'm asking for documents.
So I like, can I have your, your paced up? Can I have, you've got everything you need, stop asking me for crap. Like, just get this done, you know? And I'm trying to give her to someone else in the office. I'm like someone else calling this person and they're like, no, you gotta fire her. Like you gotta, you just gotta let it go.
And so I went to make that call to fire her, and I kind of blurted it all out and your docs will be at the front. And then there's like, and then I waited. Cause I'm like, okay, it's gonna get bad now. Like, she's really gonna blast me. And there was nothing like nothing. And then like, oh my God, is she crying?
Like, what the heck? Like did I, did I call her at a bad time? What happened? And I said, ``Are you okay? And she says, I know I seem like a crazy person, but like, I'm a single mom. I have three kids. My landlord told me I have to get out. I've been to three other mortgage brokers. They've already fired me.
Nobody wants me now. What am I supposed to do? And I was like, oh, she's not mad. She is terrified. Right. She is terrified. She's gonna lose her home. She has nowhere to live. She's not gonna get this done. And so then this is where the question part comes in. Right. Then I had to ask the questions that I hadn't asked before.
And I said, well, can you [00:24:00] get me those documents? Then she said, no, I'm like you can't or you won't like, what's the deal. She said, I'm on probation. If I give you my pay stub, the lender's gonna find out I'm on probation. They're not gonna approve my mortgage. And I said, well, aren't you a nurse? And she said, yeah.
And I said, well, here's the thing. If you work in healthcare, lenders do this thing called an exception. They know that you're always gonna have a job anywhere you go. They don't care that you're on probation. We can get this done. And she said, well, it's not, it's not enough. I'm, I'm one income. I said, but you're paying like $2,600 a month in rent.
You've got a perfect credit. You've never missed a payment. What's the problem like, and she said, and, sorry, I'm getting off track here. But anyways, I dug in, and I asked a bunch of questions. I found out she has child support. She's got this great job she's on. Like, there's all these other sources of income.
Once we got past the fear got past all the things she was holding back from me, we put it all together. Got it approved. She's like my favorite client ever. Like she's been back to me three, four times. She refers her friends to me. We have this great relationship. But if I had just stopped with that's it I'm never gonna deal with you again, you're a crazy person.
I never, would've got to reap the benefits of what could have been a great relationship. I had to like ask more questions and find out what was going on. Get her past or fear. Cuz once her fear went away, their anger went away. Right. And, that's a client for life. That's what I was gonna say.
Jamie Nau: That sounds so familiar.
Adam Hale: You hear that, Jamie? Yeah, I think it's an industry and I mean, and I think that, you know, the buzzwords around really these days are just like fi you know, fire, the jerks, you know? And a lot of times whenever we have difficult clients, I wouldn't say mean people that are maybe angry, cuz they're terrified or whatever.
I know a lot of times they fall on my lap, you know, they, people are. Come dad 'em, you know, and it's, and it's because exactly what you just said most of the time, people are just there. There's a lot of anxiety they're telling themselves stories, you know, they have a lot of other challenges going on and if you can confront those and talk to 'em and just call 'em out.
Like I literally right before our call right now, I almost fired a client. I got on the call and I told him I was gonna fire him. And I told him exactly why I was gonna fire him. And he did pretty much kind of the same thing. He. Explained why he felt the way he did. And I said, well, that's fine. I get it.
And this is how we have to work through this forward. And, you know, we have a great relationship. It's just like at a certain point, you know, things have to change and you have to get to the bottom and the root of things. And I think that so many times we pass each other as service businesses, we pass each other in the night so much that it's easy to, to take an email the wrong way or a conversation and get really snippy with each other and not really humanize what's going on.
And so what I heard you just say is like, you know, don't get me wrong. There's difference between somebody that's, you know, a bit of a cancer and somebody that's just angry, you know, but you gotta dig into what that anger is. And, sometimes it's cuz we messed up. Right. Maybe you ask for the documents five times.
I hear that a lot. You know what I mean? The same documents and it's like, I've given them to you. Okay. I get it. But, I don't know, I guess. What I really connected with and I thought was cool. There was just that different perspective of, you know, looking at their anger and trying to see what's behind at first to make sure that it's not just a bad fit or a bad person, but, you know, maybe if there's something underlining the air that you can address and solve, then.
Monica Parkin: You know, like you said for long, it's just a jerk, but you don't know until you ask the questions and you don't know until you have that real hard conversation. Right. And, and yeah, sometimes you uncover something that you actually did wrong that would help you make your process better or misunderstanding or a way that you communicated something.
Like if I had told her why I needed those documents or, or if I had explained a whole bunch of. We probably never would've got there. So again, it came back to me, right? Like I wanna blame her, but ultimately I probably started the process of her being stressed out and angry through something that I did or I neglected.
Jamie Nau: I think the big thing there is, especially when you're where Adam and I are at. So a lot of times Adam and I are like the second conversation. Right. So we're the elevated. Okay. We're getting to the point where we're bringing this upstream. And so, you know, a lot of times the first question you try to ask the client server is, okay, so let's be honest with ourselves.
Like, is there anything here we did wrong? And a lot of times like, oh yeah, yeah. I'm probably not communicating well enough, which is what you mentioned, which is, which is perfect. And so I think that, you know, every time you look at it, honestly, and you put yourself in their shoes, it makes it a lot easier to, to get to the solve and, and get.
A place where we can make this work, cuz oftentimes you don't want to just lose a client, especially in our business where it's recurring. You know we hope our clients are gonna stay with us for five years, 10 years. We don't want our clients to leave after six months. And especially when it's just a misunderstanding or when it's something that we can easily fix.
And so I think you're, you're a great point there and I'm, I'm really excited now cause I'm gonna, Adam and I are working on a book club for our team. And I think this definitely needs to fall in there because exactly what you said is, I think what our team needs to do a better job of is making sure they say, okay, what.
What could I have done better here? Or what question did I not ask that could really get to the root of this?
Monica Parkin: Yeah, because it's never one client, right? When you lose one client, you actually don't just lose that client. You lose all the referrals in the future that they will send you. Yeah.
Jamie Nau: Great. So we are right at the edge of time here. So I think it's a good ending point now that we're bringing you, okay.
Gonna sell a couple more books cause we're gonna sell it to our team. So that that's exciting for you, but I'd like to end our our podcast with giving both you guys a chance for one final thought and we'll start with you Monica.
Monica Parkin: Yeah, one thing I was just gonna touch on that. I didn't. So we're talking about clients being jerks. One thing I tell everyone too, is one of the easiest ways that you can grow your business is just, don't be a jerk yourself. Like when you go to McDonald's and you're freaking outta that kid, cuz they gave you the wrong order.
Like they're gonna go home and talk to their parents about it or, you know, you're at your chiropractor. Like that's all those people are potential clients or family, their friends or potential clients. So, you know, be, don't be, don't be a jerk if you're meeting jerks all day long, you're probably the jerk like so that's that's great.
Jamie Nau: That's great. Sound thought. How about you Adam?
Adam Hale: That's why you wanna look average like me and drive like a 2002 Honda Accord. That's like gray. So you're not memorable at all. You know, you don't wanna have that lime green car that everybody's like, yeah. That's that jerk? No, that no, that would be my takeaway. No, I just appreciate the conversation, the perspective.
I think that it's good. Just sometimes to take inventory of being intentional with making human connections. And I think you've spoken to all the benefits of that. Not only just on the front end of acquiring clients, but also on the back end of keeping 'em, which I think is also just as important.
So now just appreciate the conversation and the perspective and give us a chance to kind of think through that stuff a little bit to a bit more intentional.
Monica Parkin: Hope for great questions too and great listening skills as long as we're talking about all those things.
Jamie Nau: Thank you, Monica. And thank you to our listeners. This will be a good episode for us. Thank you.