In this episode of "The Creative Agency Success Show," the hosts, Jamie and Jody, engage in a dynamic conversation with guest Adam Kurzawa, who leads business development for North America at Infinium. The discussion centers on effective business development strategies for creative agencies, emphasizing the importance of leveraging existing client relationships and enhancing outreach efforts. Adam shares practical tips on upselling, outbound relationship building, and the significance of industry knowledge. The episode also touches on hiring for business development roles, highlighting the value of soft skills and industry experience. The conversation concludes with a light-hearted discussion about horror movies, adding a personal touch to the professional insights shared.
”When I think about sales, it's really nurturing relationships and manufacturing opportunities. That is your job all day, every day.” - Adam Kurzawa
The finer details of this episode:
Episode Resources:
Timestamps:
Introduction to the Show (00:00:00)
Jamie and Jody welcome listeners to "The Creative Agency Success Show," highlighting its purpose for agency owners.
Friendship and Professional Journey (00:00:35)
Jody discusses his long friendship with Adam and Adam's professional growth in business development.
Practical Business Development Insights (00:01:14)
Jamie emphasizes the practicality of Adam's insights for agencies struggling with business development and sales.
Discussion on Pipeline and Biz Dev (00:03:33)
The conversation shifts to building a sales pipeline and strategies to enhance business development.
The Importance of Existing Clients (00:04:14)
Adam stresses focusing on upselling and nurturing relationships with existing clients for growth.
Outbound Marketing Strategies (00:07:41)
Discussion on effective outbound marketing tactics, emphasizing personalized approaches over traditional methods.
Manufacturing Opportunities (00:10:37)
Adam shares ideas on creating memorable events to foster connections and generate new business opportunities.
Building Relationships for Biz Dev (00:13:09)
Adam discusses the importance of having advocates within client organizations to facilitate business development.
Hiring for Growth Roles (00:16:25)
The speakers discuss key qualities to look for when hiring a strategic growth director for business development.
Complementary Roles in Sales Teams (00:21:07)
The idea of having two types of salespeople: hunters and facilitators, to enhance business development.
Monitoring Sales Performance (00:21:45)
Importance of regular check-ins and analyzing funnel activity to assess sales performance.
Referrals and Trust in Sales (00:26:30)
Discussing how referrals enhance credibility and ease the sales conversation.
The Ineffectiveness of Cold Calling (00:26:40)
Critique of cold calling as a sales strategy, emphasizing its challenges and ineffectiveness.
Text Communication in Sales (00:28:10)
Advocating for transitioning leads from LinkedIn to more personal communication methods like text.
Patience in Sales Conversations (00:31:52)
The importance of patience in conversations and planting seeds for future business opportunities.
Importance of Business Development (00:40:16)
Speakers emphasize the need for proactive steps in business development for 2025.
Contacting Adam (00:40:21)
Adam shares how listeners can reach him for business discussions.
Intro 00:00:00 Welcome to the Creative Agency Success Show, the go to resource for agency owners looking to scale their business. Join us every week to stay ahead of the curve and position your agency for future success.
Jaime 00:00:15 All right, Jodie, we just got done talking to Adam. that was a fun episode. It's always fun when it goes a little longer, and I don't even realize it. I'm, like, looking down at the time, like, oh, we've gone for. We've gone for almost 45 minutes here. But that was that was a fun episode. Although I did make a crucial mistake by mispronouncing his company. You know how paranoid I am about mispronouncing names. Then there I go and mispronounce, Adam's company. So yeah, that's okay.
Jody 00:00:35 Jamie, I did not mispronounce this company, so I didn't actually even pronounce this company. So that that that kind of gives you that. Now, Adam, Adam has been a great friend. I've known him. I think we met originally about 3 or 4 years ago at the Bureau of Digital.
Jody 00:00:47 And then from there, you know, it's kind of fun to see how he's, gone from where he's at to, you know, joining a giant company, being, basically head of the business development. And, and we're talking about a wide, wide range of salespeople underneath them. So it's kind of neat to see that. And the conversation was pretty cool. I mean, Adam's a down to earth guy, and you'll like him a lot. for sure. And then, of course, the the topics at the end are always fun. Fun to listen to.
Jaime 00:01:14 Yeah, definitely. I think a lot of times as I was listening to this stuff, Adam was saying, I was like, oh yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. And so, I think it's very practical and logical stuff. But I think a lot of times you just forget to do the basics. And I think that's really a lot of what we talked about. So, anyone that is looking for biz dev struggling right now trying to get those sales, I think this will be a really good podcast and definitely worth a listen.
Jody 00:01:33 Yeah, and I think it's not only just for the creative agencies out there, but really any kind of professional service company. I was picking up little tidbits, even for what we what we do. And, you know, I give a sales presentation here in a couple of weeks to, a bunch of CPA firms, and there's going to be little, little items here and there. Then I'm going to probably insert into my, my talks. So a lot of great a lot of great ideas. And, you know, like I said, probably one of our better, conversations this year.
Jaime 00:01:57 Definitely. Hello, everybody. Welcome to today's show. Very excited about today's guest, because I was just hanging out with him last week in, in New York City. And it was a great time. And I know he's going to bring a lot of great information to this, to this podcast. And, so we're joined by Adam Kurzawa from Infinium, as well as, Jody Grondin as always. So, welcome to the show.
Jaime 00:02:15 Adam. Why don't you just start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and a little bit of your background, and get the show started.
Adam 00:02:21 Sure thing. And no worries, because it happens all the time. It's Infinium, not Infinium, which is totally fine because there is an Infinium. It is just not us. Well, I saw I saw you last week at the mirror and I conference, and I laughed, I walked in and they had my, my pass had the other company's name on it.
Jody 00:02:41 Oh no way. Seriously.
Adam 00:02:43 It just is what it is. I mean, it's we're talking about one, Val. yeah. So, you know, I lead, business development for North America here at Infinium. Jody may remember me from a previous life at Expand the room. our team was acquired by Infinium last year a little over a year ago at this point. So really, the charge has been kind of, you know, matching those teams together, really leveraging the strengths of everything from the EU team and the US.
Adam 00:03:10 And we're really trying to, you know, grow this thing in a substantial way here in North America.
Jaime 00:03:15 Awesome. And I, I apologize for mispronouncing it. I actually, one of the companies I worked for, it's all software called Infinium. So that's that was the, I'm used to saying Infinium. And I did remember seeing your name tag last week and seeing us with Extra eye in there, so yeah, that threw me off. So I know you weren't wrong.
Adam 00:03:29 You technically weren't wrong. Yeah.
Jaime 00:03:33 Cool. So the topic that we want to talk about today with you is, is one that is pressing, and I think you'll be a good person to talk about this. And we've had a lot of conversations about, pipeline and biz dev and what we can do to really build it up. I think we talked about it. We had our quarterly meeting with the CFOs a couple days ago, and to kind of talk about what we saw in the third quarter and what to tell our clients.
Jaime 00:03:53 And, and it's just still going slower than people want. And so I think we're really looking for ways to pick it up. What you can do some of that low hanging fruit. So that's kind of going to be the topic today. And I know I'm both of you are really good in that area. So I think we're going to have a really good conversation. So Adam, I want you to start us off with some of that low hanging fruit. What are the things we can do to help build our pipeline up and some biz dev stuff?
Adam 00:04:14 Yeah, I think, you know, look, there's if you've already got kind of a good cadence with your marketing practice that you've got at your organization, whether it's writing blog posts, doing podcasts like this, being out there, doing events, that kind of thing, like keep doing all that stuff, right? Like nobody's telling you not to do that stuff. but what we're seeing and what I'm hearing from other agencies, both from founders and from heads of biz dev, is that where the work is coming from now? Is not net new clients or net new projects from those clients.
Adam 00:04:44 It's really existing clients doing either an upsell or an extension of an existing project. Or if you're lucky, you're getting some good referral, like inbound type stuff that's happening. So I think like the first thing I would do is really double down on really over delivering to those existing clients and being in their face. If you're not in their market, you're not in their city. You got to go see them in Q4 and get in person, figure out what they've got going on for the new year. Figure out if there's anyone else in the org that you can expand into, like a different line of business. I think of like our financial services clients, great places to go visit someone and be like, hey, by the way, you know, we're an X department. We're not really doing anything with these four other places. There's somebody you think I should be talking to and try to foster that. They're also going to be great sources of referrals, right? Those people know your work. They trust you with the brand.
Adam 00:05:36 They hire you over and over again. If you're going to get lucky on a referral. That's the place where I continue to see agency struggle. And, you know, it comes down to kind of just, you know, fear and being out of the comfort zone is really genuine outbound on the sales front. and I think about that, as you know, when I think about sales, it's really nurturing relationships and manufacturing opportunities like that is your job all day, every day. And I don't care how you do it, but that's what that's what you got to be delivering for your agency. So, you know, typically the way I like to tell people to do it is to start with people that have given you money before. That could be a client that hired you three years ago that you're no longer working with. Maybe they went somewhere else. Talk to your team like right now is a great opportunity for us. For example, like we've got a North American team, but I've now got 350 colleagues in the EU who have they worked with? What companies have they worked with, that alumni from the company go work somewhere else like that's the best in ever.
Adam 00:06:38 Like they know everything about that. Really diving down into that. And then there are like second and third levels of those kinds of things where you can look at alumni of, you know, people you went to school with, you know, like me, I've got kids. I mean, for years you're at PTA meetings, you're at school fundraisers, like, talk to the dads, like, what are people doing? Like, you know, their odds are they're going to need something, that you're working on. And if nothing else, you're just building those relationships and maybe somebody makes a referral. But I think that outbound thing is something people need to be doing, like right now. Because like as inflation comes down, the fed just cut the rate. We'll see if that case continues. We really feel like budgets have been committed in Q4. It's probably likely that Q1 is is fairly well fleshed out for most clients, but Q2 is like the opportunity. So if you're thinking that that that's your kind of your horizon, you got to be doing that work now to be on their on their on their mind and at the forefront of their decision making process.
Jody 00:07:41 So, so you mean so kind of kind of getting back then we've got, I just had a, I was just at a conference and they said about 50% of the agencies are seeing a positive outlook for next year. Positive outlook for fourth quarter, 50% are saying the opposite. So it's kind of like it's one of those things we don't really know. And you're right with the fed cuts hopefully that that sparks things. You did touch base on outbound marketing. how you know and you and you talked about hey, let's go. Let's go to our existing team. Find out alumni I love that idea a lot. What other ways of outbound marketing are you seeing impactful? I mean, it can't be just simply knocking on doors. Or maybe it is. So what's your thought on that?
Adam 00:08:24 Yeah, I you know, I'll kind of just subtract the word marketing from that because I think it's more it's a little bit more hand to hand tactical than that. So the other thing that I think works really well, and again, it all varies on the size of your team and how much time you can devote to it.
Adam 00:08:40 because I always caveat any outbound discussion with you can't ignore like the inbound and the current clients and the referral. Right? This stuff has to be additive. It can't take away from that other stuff. I think one of the key things you can do is if you're targeting, a vertical, certain types of companies, that kind of thing, what I'll typically do is, you know, let's say I'm targeting a company like, and or CPA, for example. Yeah. you know, I would look that company up and then start looking for two key things. I'll look at titles, you know, head of product, head of design, you know, it, technology, lead, CTO, that kind of thing. I'll kind of bucket a couple of those LinkedIn profiles for research later. The other part I'll look at is who am I connected to with the organization? Oh, wow. I'm connected to this guy Jody. He's fairly senior. I know him through X, Y, and Z, and then I kind of make a little bit of a matrix of, okay, like, what is my best chance of getting that first in conversation? Is it the referral route? And if it is, I take all the work off of my friend who's going to make the referral.
Adam 00:09:45 Like I write the note. What do I want to get out of meeting with Jodi? How do I think I can add value? Why should he waste his time talking to me for ten minutes? Right? Give them that note. Ask them if they're willing to make the referral. Send them on their way. If it's more of the title route, you got to do some homework. You got to figure out something a little bit more personal about them. maybe, you know, and again, you know, you don't want to get too stalkerish, but if they have public social media and they're posting things that are interesting, maybe you find a mutual connection of like a hobby. For me, it would be running music, you know, kid stuff, you name it, you find some kind of common ground and you also try to figure out, are they doing the conference circuit like they come into your city, like get coffee, meet them in person. the other piece outside of that is, you know, I always talk about, you know, manufacturing meetings.
Adam 00:10:37 So, you know, a good case in point is, you know, we are doing a client only event in Chicago at the end of this month at a New York Times bestselling author named Rich Cohen, who is going to be doing a fun talk about what business development and companies can learn from The Beatles versus the Rolling Stones. Okay. Cool. Fun. Have drinks, have some food, bring some people in. Have a great Q&A. Right. So doing memorable things in market that people can come to and get to meet you. Wonderful. Jamie, I know I saw you last week in New York at the conference. You know, it was ad week and, one of the publications did like an invite only dinner with one of their financial services client. I wound up getting an invite. It was magical, right? Like you're sitting there, you're breaking bread with people. You're having a conversation. In that instance, they were leading it around, like data and analytics. And just like a really healthy conversation, you get to know the people in the room.
Adam 00:11:33 By the end of it, you've got ten new friends. And you know, and we're all doing different things and we can all help each other. So, I think those are you know, I think you know targeting companies one on one doing something really memorable in a market where people can attend. And then really figuring out how you can stack meetings around you. Being in that market is super key.
Jaime 00:11:54 Yeah, I love I love what you're talking about. It's funny, Jody and I were in a conference the week a couple of weeks ago, and we were kind of comparing our emails, and right now all the marketing junk emails we get are like driving us nuts. I'm like, look, here's like 12 I've got this morning from people I have no clue. And they're just like phishing emails. And those are getting so annoying. So like, I love the suggestions you just came up with because they're more personalized and they're more specific, and they're going to like weed through that area where people just aren't paying attention to it and they're automatically just swiping and deleting.
Jaime 00:12:20 So, I think that was that's really good tips. I want to jump back to some of the things you said. First is about going after your own clients. You know, one of the things that we've talked about in the past here is what I called a white paper report, where you list all your services across the top left, all your clients on the bottom, and you kind of like, put X's in there for the things you are doing and then try to attack the things that you aren't doing, which is the white space. As you were talking, I kind of realized that, you know, in your space it's a little bit different because you might be working with a company that has 12 different departments. So maybe you have one of those for each company, and you have all the departments across the top, all your services down the left, and then kind of put XS in there for the things you are doing, and then try to get introductions to those departments you're not working with.
Jaime 00:12:59 Now, I think there might be some research that's needed to do that, because want to make sure you understand all the departments. So can you talk a little bit about that and understanding your current clients and understanding like where that white space actually exists?
Adam 00:13:09 Yeah, it's I mean, I love what you just described. It's like a it's like an opportunity matrix with your existing clients. Like, like where can I get in and offer more, more value. So I mean, it's a really great example. I mean, we've got one client we've been with for 6 or 7 years. And it's interesting because it started out as, as web development work. And then they just had I mean, they do. So I mean, they're part of the marketing group. So they do a lot of events inside their vertical. They need quick turn on things. So we became a go to resource for like presentation development, you know, PowerPoint decks, video production, you name it. And then when they would introduce us to other people and other groups, it was like, no, no, no time out, really.
Adam 00:13:47 We do all that stuff, but that's not our specialty. Right. Lead with video and like PowerPoints, like we do so much more. We build products and apps and B2B portals and all this great stuff. So yeah, it's hard to do that research. I think you you it would, it would really benefit you to have someone on the client side that you trust that's an advocate or a champion for you. You could, you know, maybe maybe go, hey, can we get lunch? I don't want to talk about anything we're working on with you, but I have some questions about, like, stuff in the org and just level set with them. Hey, if I go to X, Y, and Z departments, like, do they do all this stuff internally? Do they already have vendors that they've got booked for next year? And I shouldn't even, like bark up that tree. and you know, if you've got an advocate and a champion, I mean, look, it's no different than an RFP, right? If you get invited and you don't have that person on the inside that's giving you the info.
Adam 00:14:39 I mean, you know, you're the other two. You're not the one. That's actually exactly the math is against you. Yeah. and I think when you get in. And that's where I think, you know, agencies talk a lot about what, what role does biz dev play after the sale. And you've got some agencies that have account management or client management, and maybe the project manager does some of that. I still think biz dev has to kind of keep their fangs and they're a little bit more, you gotta build those, like those key relationships, the people that are going to give you the hat tip. You know what? Like I'm hearing that there's an agency that's working with these other guys, and I think they're on the way out this year. And you know what? If you're going to throw your hat in the ring, like, do it now. I mean, we got an RFP from a sports, company that, I'm trying to figure out how to say it without giving away who it is for sure.
Adam 00:15:29 Yeah. but I knew nothing about it. I had a former client at a similar company reach out two months ago. Go. Hey, did you guys see this? They listed this publicly like it's perfect for you guys. and I wrote to the company and said, hey, so-and-so, from your competitor in this other state, said, you know, we would be good for this. Like, is it still open? And they were like, absolutely. Like, come on in. Glad you've done work with them. So, like, you know, again, it's just having you want eyes and ears everywhere.
Jody 00:15:57 Oh sure. For sure. Yeah, 100%. I got a question for you. So, it sounds like we're looking at a, you know, in the business development position, it sounds like we're looking for a specific type of person to being giving that that face of your organization. And we're currently looking for ideally we're currently looking for a strategic growth director right now for those companies out there, they're in the same position.
Jody 00:16:23 What should we be looking for?
Adam 00:16:25 Yeah, that's a great question. and I think every situation's a little unique, right. Because we've all seen organizations where it's like founder led sales. Yeah. and in that situation, you definitely need a very specific skill set from your business development person to really kind of augment what the founder might already be doing. If you're looking for someone with growth, I mean, I think there's a couple of things there. That person hopefully has done this role somewhere before. Yep. I'd seen a couple things like, I don't think this is a I've done biz dev for five years and now I'm the head of growth. Right. I think it's someone that's, you know, hopefully worked outside of the industry and done something in like sales business, biz dev marketing. and then is also practically done it where you guys need it. they should have some kind of a network, right? You know, and to me, it's this. We talk about this even when we try to hire for bid staff.
Adam 00:17:20 Yeah. You could teach something like in our instance, we can teach someone like what we sell, right? Visual design, UX development. Yep. Quality assurance. All of that. Soft skills. Really hard to teach, right? You either know how to listen and actively engage in a conversation and add value, or you're going to have to really shadow someone for a very long time to pick that stuff up. and it does get harder and harder. And I, you know, definitely not a slight at any particular generation or demographic. Yep. folks that are coming up now. Different ways of communicating, right? Like they're used to the phone being like a face-to-face kind of thing versus having a phone call.
Jody 00:18:04 Right. Which is kind of funny.
Adam 00:18:06 I think we're a lot closer in age than I am Gen Z. yeah. You know, I mean, my one of my first jobs working in music was I called radio stations and got people to play records, so I would call and make phone calls.
Jody 00:18:18 What's a record exactly like?
Adam 00:18:20 What is a B in layman's terms? Adam? MP3 not even an MP3. It's a stream.
Jody 00:18:27 Yeah, I mean TikTok.
Adam 00:18:28 Do you.
Jody 00:18:29 Mean TikTok?
Adam 00:18:32 Yeah. I would call them in 1 or 2 things would happen. I'd get them on the phone, which is really weird. Like you're just cold calling a person's house or their or their place of business and saying, hey, I sent you so-and-so record. You guys played it last week. Are you willing to chart it? Da da da da da. What's going on? You're building a relationship there, or you got to master the art of the 59 second voicemail. No.
Jody 00:18:53 59.
Adam 00:18:53 Okay, good. About capturing everything with a call to action and then getting the hell off the phone. Okay? Right. Because nobody's listening to more than that. Yeah, this generation like that, that's a foreign concept. So, like, how do we translate it into what they're really strong at? and also kind of foster them learning like some of those more soft skills.
Adam 00:19:12 If somebody in the bureau, that, that I've known for years was like, when we look at business people, we look for people that have waited tables, like if you've waited tables or bartender, you can, or a bartender, right? You're good at listening, like you might not hear everything, but you pick up on visual cues like, you see when someone's pissed that you didn't get to them quick enough? All those things are like well-rounded, soft skills that people need in biz dev. For your growth position, though, that person's going to have those soft skills. I guarantee it.
Jody 00:19:41 100%.
Adam 00:19:42 They have to. Yeah, you should have a network and they've got to have some experience, like showing that they've been able to really hit your like the KPIs of the places they've come from to really drive demonstrative growth. Like it can't just be, oh I think I could do it. You know there's got to be some, some real, you know, meat. Meat on paper.
Jody 00:19:59 Right, right.
Jody 00:20:01 It makes, it makes a ton of sense. And when we think about it it's, it's one of those things. Do we hire somebody that is a good sales person that has a great marketing background. Because really with marketing and strategic growth, you have to have a good marketing background. You've got to have good sales. Or do we hire somebody that's industry agnostic or industry agnostic, or do you hire somebody that is industry focused? You know, so you know what exactly. You know, which exactly is it? First? You know, if you're if you're vertical is Dennis, do we hire somebody that has experience in dentistry or don't we care about that? You know, because that person with that marketing and sales background is going to trump that. What's your thought on that? Because we keep tossing it back and forth and we've done both. We've hired a sales person at a lower level. Not the senior director, but at a lower level thinking, you know, hey, this person is really awesome and found out not so much.
Jody 00:20:55 So, couldn't communicate, couldn't talk the talk. And then we've hired people or brought our CFOs in and we found that, hey, they've been extremely good, but maybe not great at the closing of the deal. But what's your thought? What's your thought on that.
Adam 00:21:07 Yeah, I think I think in some instances the right move could be two complementary people. Right? Someone that's more of the hunter gatherer that has the network that's just good in front of the client. And then someone who's more of a facilitator for the paperwork and the process, I mean, you guys know this just from hiring, like, forget about biz dev marketing, sales growth like hiring, period. You've got to figure out how long your leash is on people too, right? And sales is real tricky because, you know, you can you could fire a little too early, and that person might have been on the cusp of turning a corner. You could also let that go way too long. And you're just like bleeding money.
Adam 00:21:45 And they're not delivering on results and they're just not getting it. So it's I think, you know, having regular check points with that person. biweekly, monthly check ins, if there's some way to look at like funnel activity that you can really extrapolate, like, okay, like how are they trending? Like how are these conversations going in the beginning? It's really squishy because it's it's like I'm having a bunch of conversations. Maybe they're assigning a percentage of how real something feels. but the sooner you can get that down to like, like, like more fidelity of this is real and we're closing things great. Once they got some momentum. You're good to go. I mean, we we thought about that. We went through a positioning exercise, ironically, right before the pandemic, which was like, oh, of course, perfect timing. We were like, oh. And then, you know, and then the world shuts down and it's like, okay, well, we're going to come back to positioning right now.
Adam 00:22:38 We're going to grab all of the work we can possibly grab whatever. Exactly. But we talked about that because, you know, we've certainly done like, for example, a bunch of work in the health care space. And there's a certain ceiling where we were coming up on RFPs, and we knew we were competing with people that had doctors and board members on their agency staff. And that's a whole other level, like like your dentist example. Yeah, we're really going to focus on that. At some point. You're going to get to a tipping point where your team having a good knowledge of the vertical is one thing. And can they execute a project? Sure. But that client, like if they ask one question and you don't know the right acronym or you don't know the compliance standard, you're out. The vernacular is super important. You can't quit. You they can't coach you on the fly. Right? They're not paying for that. Yep. Definitely.
Jaime 00:23:26 I think it's yeah, it's a I always say it's really hard to hire a marketing or biz dev person because they're really good at sales.
Jaime 00:23:32 And that's all an interview is, right is all I'm doing is selling you on myself. So like, it's really hard. Like how often? Like, you interviewed ten salespeople and all of them are good because they're all, like, really good at selling themselves. So that's always a struggle. So, earlier you mentioned that the 59 second voicemail, I think that was a a cool tip because it's easy to think about, easy to remember. And I always think like, yeah, the 59 seconds is important. But also what's really important is that first 10s like I always think about me in the podcast, like the second the podcast starts, my voice changes, right? And you can tell the sales voice on the on the voicemail where I'm like, oh, this is sales. I'm just swiping, I'm deleting it. So, any other quick tips like that before we start, thinking about our fun question for the day, I'm just curious.
Adam 00:24:10 And I would say the.
Jody 00:24:10 59 seconds, probably 29 seconds.
Adam 00:24:13 Now. Yeah, it's too long. 59 is too long, right? Like 59. You're done. Yeah, right. You can do 30. Great. Like a hot 30. Yep. Hot 30. Sounds good. Yeah, yeah. Are you you're thinking about it like a standup comedian. Like you've got a certain amount of time. Like if you haven't captured that audience, you might as well just walk off the stage. Yeah, exactly. I think, Jamie, to that point, I think I think, you know, if we think about it like a 30, 59 second email, like, or a phone call like, whatever it is that first five to 10s is everything, right? So like your intro, who the hell you are? Why am I calling you? Right. Like. And the more personal you can do it in the first like sentence. Great. Hey, you know, you know, reaching out. You know, I saw you just ran the marathon last year.
Adam 00:24:55 I've done it three times. It's totally bananas. Definitely want to talk to you about that. Reaching out because I saw X, Y, and Z. I'm going to be at this conference next week. Hope you're going to be there. We'd love to get coffee. I'm going to follow up with an email. Here's my number. If you want to ring me back, I'll shoot you an email after. Hope to see you there. That was crappy, but you get the gist.
Jaime 00:25:15 It's the connection. I think that's the part that I like to hear is because I agree. Like, if I'm calling you and be like, hey Adam, it's Jamie. I was talking to Jody about you the other week. That's much better than. Hey, Adam, this is Jamie from summit, CPA. I'm calling to see what you're using for your bookkeeping. Like, it's just there's two different voices there when you when you listen to those messages. Totally.
Adam 00:25:32 And that's where what I said earlier is so important, right? If you find out through your LinkedIn research that I'm connected to Jody through so-and-so, you drop that name right away.
Adam 00:25:41 Like it just, you know, I think people don't. They're just uncomfortable asking for referrals or getting people to make a referral. But you don't realize, like you're basically vetted by osmosis at that point, by nature of they know and trust who's referring you. And that just elevates the conversation to a point like, okay, you don't have to do all this table stakes like, like, prove that I'm worth your time. They're like, oh, you know, Jamie sent me to Jody. Oh, Jamie sent Adam to Jody. Oh, I'll take a call with him. Okay, cool. Yeah. Oh, Jamie. How do you know him? Oh, cool. All right. Okay. Yeah, I'll take that call. And then the conversation can be on a business level. It can be, you know, supremely focused, like all those things. And you're removing. I always say, like, the sooner you can get a lead from, like, ice cold to, like, piping hot, if you can get it somewhere in the middle, you're in much better shape.
Adam 00:26:30 Yeah, but like cold, like when people say they cold, call them, like, why are you doing that? That is, unless you're in SAS. It's horrific. I you should never, ever cold call anybody.
Jody 00:26:40 Yeah I've done it for I did it for three years. It's brutal.
Adam 00:26:44 It's brutal, it's brutal. It's a you're afraid.
Jody 00:26:46 Of the phone. You become afraid of the phone pretty quickly. Yeah. It's like, oh, damn, that thing is mean.
Adam 00:26:53 And it probably came through in your calls, right? Like you start to get. I mean, I remember from doing the radio phone calls. Yeah, you get robotic and when you get robotic, people pick up on it. And especially now in the world of AI, like, if you sound like an I. Yeah. Click. Yeah. Gone.
Jaime 00:27:10 Well and especially like because I think a lot of them are told like don't take no for an answer. So, when people don't take no for an answer, what I usually end up doing is just hanging up on the person, which I feel rude about.
Jaime 00:27:18 But it's like, I'm sure I'm not the only one. It's like, okay, I already told you that. We already have. I'm we're distributed company. We don't have an office building, so we don't need new windows. I already that was my answer. But you're still trying to sell me. It's like, what am I supposed to do? I'm just gonna hang up on you, you know? Like, it just doesn't make sense to some of these sales strategies.
Adam 00:27:34 So. And I know what I'm up against too, because like, my cell phone will ring all day with numbers I don't recognize and I don't answer them. But what I love is like Apple, for example, I open the voicemail thing. It gives me a little write up of what someone said. I read it, it's like, hey, Adam, you've been approved. You've been approved for $72,000 home loan. Yeah. No, that's not real. Yeah, exactly. Hey, Adam, I think this is your number.
Adam 00:27:56 I'm such and such client. So someone told me calling you right back, right? You know, like, that's. You know, it's just so, so easy.
Jody 00:28:04 You actually keep your voicemail turned on. I freaking filled that thing up. Or. No, but.
Adam 00:28:10 I keep.
Jaime 00:28:10 My voicemail on to you. Yeah.
Adam 00:28:11 I'm an inbox zero voicemail box clean kind of guy. Oh, I'm completely full.
Jody 00:28:17 You can't leave one. Text me and I'll get back with you.
Adam 00:28:22 Well, I'm happy you mentioned text like that. That's one other thing that I. You know, I try to do as much as possible, and I share it with our team. Like, the sooner you can get somebody out of LinkedIn into an email inbox, great. If you can get them on text or WhatsApp or Instagram direct message better. It's gold. Yep, gold.
Jody 00:28:40 100%. And if you and if you can and if you can kind of leave the conversation just personal to. Yeah which is great to then talk to me and maybe a month from now then lead more into business.
Jody 00:28:49 That's even better.
Adam 00:28:50 And let them ask. Right. Like, you know, I think, you know, it's really hard when you're in sales not to force it.
Jody 00:28:56 I know, I know.
Adam 00:28:58 We all have numbers. We gotta hit numbers. Right. But like, you know, I've got people I've been talking to 3 to 5 years. I, you know, I said to someone the other day, I was, I was talking to someone and they're like, how do you like, how do you not go into like friend territory with like you talk to these people forever? I'm like, look, I've got people that I started out thinking we were going to do work that have become friends. We've never worked together.
Jody 00:29:19 Same here. Yeah. And then I've.
Adam 00:29:21 Got friends that I've had for years that I kind of didn't want to, like, push them on anything. And I was like. And then you just mentioned, like, you know, if you need help with that, like I can and then they become a client and you just you keep the line clean.
Adam 00:29:32 It's like, look, I don't want to ruin our friendship. If this is going to be a deal breaker, let's not even have the conversation. but the other way is funny. Like, I've got people we worked with for years that we haven't worked with now for several years. Like I go to hockey games with, and you know. Yeah.
Jody 00:29:48 It's like, yeah, you know, 100%. Yeah. It's kind of funny you say that because we that exact same thing happened where again, not a friend. We, we eventually became a client. Yeah. Basically we tax back and forth you me about his marriage about whatever. I'm part of his wedding in a couple of weeks now. You know, it's like. But I think that's kind of normal. That's cool. You know, we got our friendship this way. Other people may have got a different ways, but I think that's cool. And then I've got friends that, you know, I'm part of Visted and all these different organizations.
Jody 00:30:20 It's like, I don't ever want to sell them. I want to be their friend, you know? And again, it's like, it's tough. It's like, no, no, no, no, we. Yeah. Okay, fine. I'll help you out with this little thing, but no more. You know.
Adam 00:30:34 It doesn't have to be icky, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, you know, there's the whole Glengarry Glen Ross always be closing. I've always said it's always be useful. Like, if you can help somebody, you do it and you do it because it's the right thing. You don't do it because you think you're going to get something out of it. But like sales is good karma, man. Like you do enough good stuff and like it's going to find its way back to you in your organization.
Jody 00:30:55 Well, it's no different than thought leadership, right? You know, if you've seen any of our presentations, it's not a sales pitch. Yeah.
Jody 00:31:01 It is like, hey, here are the four things that you need to know to run your business, your marketing agency ten times better. Here are the metrics you need. Here's how you build the metrics. Here's how you create that forecast to do it. And the cool thing about it is we've got folks that have listened to us talk and they do really well. That's all they needed. And it was for free. And they built a very successful agency because of it. And those are the folks that every time we're in New York. Hey, give us a call. I want to take you out for dinner. You know, let's go to a New York game, you know, Knicks game or something like that. It's like, yeah, that's cool. And there's never it's never a weird deal, right? You know, it's not weird, you know? Hey, you never were a client, but you became a friend and we helped you out. That's great. That's good.
Jody 00:31:42 And then you get. Then you get the 90% that can't do it, you know, in your point. And then they may reach out to you or somebody else. But again, that's the whole idea, at least in my opinion.
Adam 00:31:51 I totally agree.
Jaime 00:31:52 I think the other part that was mentioned earlier is, is being patient with it. Right? So, like how many times have you been at a, a bar or a house party or something like that and you're just there to watch the Super Bowl and someone you're having a conversation with a random dad or a random male. And how long is it before they ask you what you do? Right? It's usually like the second or third question. And again, you don't approach that as a sales. You're just like, oh yeah, I help small businesses with their, with their websites or whatever, whatever it is, like just plant that seed. So. Okay. They might ask you follow up questions. They don't ask, you follow up questions, you move on.
Jaime 00:32:19 But then someday they're like, oh, you know, I'm starting a small business. Maybe I need help with a website. Maybe I should call that guy I met at the part of the Super Bowl party a couple of months ago, you know, so I think that that's the thing with the way I handle it is I'm just planting the seed. I don't bring it up like it's, oh, I'm trying to sell them right away. I'm just like, hey, yeah, I, I do a small business consulting, financial consulting. And then sometimes if they're a small business owner, they're going to ask me a lot more questions. If they're not, they're just going to move on. And it's totally cool. So all right so they're at our phone. Sorry.
Adam 00:32:44 Go ahead, go ahead. No, I'm just saying I don't think I'm going to say anything that's gender inappropriate. But we all know other men, and they they're very bad at uncomfortable silence. And the question what do you do come up because they run out of things to talk about.
Adam 00:32:59 Exactly.
Jaime 00:33:00 You only talk about the last play of the game for so long, right? Especially if it comes up. Right. Awesome. So we've reached the show where we get to talk about the fun stuff. So I know we didn't do it on the actual show here, but we did pre show about Halloween and haunted houses quite a bit here. So I want to go down that down that path because it is one of my favorite topics. And so we're going to talk about scary movies. so what I'm going to have you guys do is rank what level of scary movie you can handle. So ten would be like extreme slasher, like it's the highest level. I think Terrifier three just came out. Something like that. One would be like Hocus Pocus. Like, that's all I can handle. So what for both of you guys? Horror movie. Can you handle watching and do actually enjoy watching it at that level? So Adam, will, we'll start with you.
Adam 00:33:46 I have not seen any of the Terrifier movies, but I've seen the clips and I can tell you that is easily not even a ten.
Adam 00:33:53 That's like a 20 for me. Like, I can't, I can do fake zombie gore. That's fine. But when I feel like I'm watching a snuff film, like I'm out, like it feels too real, like I can't do it. and I'm trying to, you know, and then, you know, you've got, like, Beetlejuice. That's a one.
Jody 00:34:13 Beetlejuice. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Adam 00:34:15 You can do that. But, I mean, my favorite all time still remains to this day is Halloween.
Jody 00:34:20 Okay, okay.
Adam 00:34:21 I mean, I've there's a is a podcast about the history of the first movie that I love, great stories about when they when they showed it to pilot audiences, they originally showed it and it had no soundtrack. And the audiences walked out laughing because it was just like a guy in a white mask chasing people, and no one was afraid when they showed it with the score, people walked out terrified.
Jody 00:34:45 Is that right?
Adam 00:34:46 I just love how music and sound can trigger the fear in those movies.
Adam 00:34:52 And I think when you watch it and you notice it, it's such an it's almost another character in that movie.
Jody 00:34:57 But I think even in those movies, when you look back, you think, why was I scared watching that one? You know, at the time you're like, oh my gosh. But now it's like, You know, because everything is getting better and better and better and more real and real and real. And just to your point, you know, it's not real and there's no music. When there is music, it becomes real and no difference in no way.
Adam 00:35:18 There's no blood in the first movie except for the opening scene when he's a kid and you just happen to see the knife at the end. True.
Jody 00:35:25 Yeah, yeah.
Adam 00:35:25 There's no blood. So, like, what do you. It's terrifying that this person is just chasing you. You're running, they're walking. You're not getting away. And the creepy music is following you through the whole movie.
Jody 00:35:38 Oh, yeah.
Jaime 00:35:39 So did you like the new the newer movies with, like, the same the same one with, like, Jamie Lee in it? I thought that was really well done.
Adam 00:35:45 I actually did, I did, I mean, you know, were they perfect? No, but I did. You know, I like the idea that they said, okay, everything else, remove it from canon and let's pick it up as a fresh sequel to the original. And look at all the time that's changed and what's happened. I love that they did that. I thought it was pretty well done.
Jody 00:36:03 Yeah.
Jaime 00:36:04 All right Jodie, what's your what's your scare level?
Jody 00:36:07 Oh, you know, I don't have a scare level. Be honest with you. I just love watching. Really? Anything. I mean, it, you know, even the ones that go beyond, it's like, I'll watch it, but if it's obviously if it's real, I'm not watching it. If it's if it's the demonic stuff that kind of gets to me a little bit, you know, because, you know, it's it could be real.
Jody 00:36:25 Yeah. You know, slasher movies aren't going to be real. So it's like, oh, those are fun just watching it. But you know, that's good. But a story I've got with for you is scream. I love the scream series. Just love it. And that's not real. Obviously you can you can definitely. Well, hopefully you can tell it's not real, but, sorry about that. Is that so? We you know, I had two little kids that I think they were probably five and six at the time when the first scream came out. And, you know, they just happened to fall asleep. I don't know, they happened to wake up early, hop on the couch and turn their favorite cartoons on. Right. And so they're both sitting there watching cartoons and, so we, you know, my wife and I came out of the bedroom and realized quickly that it wasn't a cartoon they were watching. It was free.
Adam 00:37:11 Oh, wow.
Jody 00:37:11 So they're both huddled together, holding each other, watching scream and it was kind of funny because today that is by far their most favored.
Jody 00:37:21 yeah, slasher movie ever is a scream series. You know, it's like, hey, screams coming out, we're gonna go watch it, dad. I'm like, let's do it. Yeah.
Adam 00:37:30 For memory, it's a core memory.
Jody 00:37:32 Yeah. Hilarious how bad appearance we thought we were at the time. I was like, oh my gosh, our kids have been watching this for an hour because we just didn't get up in time. But, Yeah. So scream. Scream is by far my favorite. there's a lot of great ones. Halloween, Friday 13th, all those are fun to watch. Even now, going back when you're flipping channels, they pop on. It's like, yeah, for some reason it stays on for a longer period of time. But the one that really scared the living bejesus out of me, actually. And this will date me a little bit. Nightmare on Elm Street. When that came out, I was like, wow. Yeah, yeah. It's like, am I going to build a fall asleep?
Adam 00:38:11 It was like Johnny Depp's film debut.
Jody 00:38:13 Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. So, so I love I love that kind of thing. Which kind of gets to where we were talking about before going to Halloween and going to different haunted houses and, and all that kind of stuff. That's, that's a lot of fun because being scared a little, at least, I think being scared just fun. could be wrong. But, you know, my wife doesn't agree with that sentiment, but.
Jaime 00:38:36 My wife is not in on it. My son is. He'll participate because he just likes to be around us. But my daughter is all in on it. So that's her. She loves horror movies. It's her favorite time of year. She the new one with Nicolas Cage, the Longlegs. She's like, we have to go see that in the theater. And we went and saw it. So like, it was it was really fun and really good movie. But I, I'm definitely more of like, if there's too much gore, like the terror fires, I'm kind of out.
Jaime 00:38:57 I don't like I don't like to just be like grossed out the entire movie. So like, like I usually don't go that high on it. Like that would be a tend to me as those type of movies or even like the saw, like I don't think I've ever seen. Even those.
Jody 00:39:07 Are good. You like the saw?
Jaime 00:39:10 I mean, I would, I've never just seen them but I so I it's something my daughter and I connect on. So it's fun for she and I to watch, horror movies together and, yeah, it's definitely one of my, one of my favorite things. And we did we did take my son to see, talk to me. I don't know if you guys saw that one where they had, like, the little, like, hand. That was kind of like a Ouija board, and it possessed the person that was holding it. And, we went and took my son and daughter to that one. They were the only kids in the entire theater. And my daughter is 16 and my son or 17, my daughter's son's 15.
Jaime 00:39:36 It's not like they're kids, but at that time they were a little younger, and that one was pretty gruesome. And they were like, I think my son had his hat and hood down for almost the entire movie. Like, it was pretty. It was pretty, pretty rough. But yeah. So, so horror movies good. Awesome. Well, I thought this was a this is a great episode. we ended on obviously one of my favorite topics, and we actually started on the, one of my favorite topics. I know that, this is what all of our clients are asking us. A lot of companies are really thinking about is how to, how to fill those gaps, because I think a lot of people are hoping 2025 is going to be a going to be a big year, but it's not going to happen unintentionally. Like you need to make sure you're taking those steps to make it happen. So definitely appreciate all your knowledge on this, Adam. And this was a this is a fun episode.
Adam 00:40:16 Yeah. Thanks for having me, guys. This was great.
Jody 00:40:18 Yeah. So how did people get Ahold of you, Adam?
Adam 00:40:21 Oh, get Ahold of me. Yeah.
Jody 00:40:23 For whatever reason.
Adam 00:40:24 LinkedIn for sure. Adam. Kurzawa. Infinium. and they can email me as well. It's just Adam Kurzawa my last name. I'm sure maybe it'll be in the show notes. at infinium.com. Happy to talk, biz dev. Always happy to talk new projects. Yeah. you know, you know where to find me.
Jaime 00:40:42 Awesome.
Jaime 00:40:43 Well thanks, guys.
Adam 00:40:45 Thank you.
Outro 00:40:47 Enjoy this podcast. Visit our website Summit Connect to get more tips and strategy for achieving business success. We're here to be a resource in this ever changing industry.